That’s what Ethan McCord thinks those in the military are according to a quote he stands by on his Facebook page:
“War paralyzes your courage and deadens the spirit of true manhood. It degrades and stupefies with the sense that you are not responsible, that ’tis not yours to think and reason why, but to do and die,’ like the hundred thousand others doomed like yourself. War means blind obedience, unthinking stupidity, brutish callousness, wanton destruction, and irresponsible murder.”
—Alexander Berkman
Yup, the Russian anarchist and attempted murderer Alexander Berkman. THIS is the man that the anti-war crowd calls their hero and quotes.
Naturally, I thought the quote was kind of stupid and ignorant considering the man never served in combat or went to war at all. He’s never even served in the military, yet Ethan McCord freely quotes him – his right to do, of course.
Some may be asking why the name Ethan McCord sounds so familiar. He, along with fellow anti-war former Soldier Josh Stieber, were the ones that wrote the public apology to the families of the people killed in the infamous Wikileaks video that the treasonous PFC Bradley Manning illegally released. These anti-war folks like to call the war illegal while ironically supporting people who break the law.
My response to the above quote was simple: “Berkman sounds pretty ignorant. Obviously didn’t serve in the American military.” But, boy did it rub the nerves of one of McCord’s leftist, anti-war loons. I call him a loon because he’s all over the map like every liberal loon idiot (which doesn’t describe liberal fan and reader Bob Allen at all, by the way) blaming Halliburton, an “illegal occupation”, and blaming America for the world’s woes.
McCord’s supporter responded broadly.
“What are you talking about Grisham. There is no difference between the way we have been conducting war, and the way other nations have. And I have served and continue to serve.”
No difference, eh? To which nations are we being compared? Iran? North Korea? Iraq, circa 1990′s? So, I made some more points and asked some simple questions:
So Eric, you’re saying that you and I are stupid,callous, murderers? Sorry but that doesn’t describe me or the Soldiers I’ve deployed with and continue to serve with. If that DOES describe you, I highly suggest you stop serving and do the nation a favor.
I’m not sure why he continues to use my last name in responding to me, but that’s okay. We are in the military and that is how Soldiers are generally addressed. His response is where he starts to reveal his true colors:
Grisham. I don’t know you, therefore I can’t comment whether you are stupid, callous or a murderer. I certainly am not. However, during my combat experiences I certainly did things that I probably wouldn’t have done if I was in a more mature or experienced frame of mind. And I certainly saw decisions made and missions conducted that were just so far of the mark of rational thought that it was disturbing. So, most people in the armed services are good people, and I enjoy serving my country for these people. And it is quite audacious of you to suggest that I should stop serving my country. However, there are also plenty of sociopaths and murderrs among our ranks. And I do feel it is our responsibility to speak out against them and their actions, because we are “supposed” to be better than that. All I am saying is Americans are capable of every villainous act that any other group of people are. And like it or not, we have been trained to dehumanize all those who aren’t American. That is why we have terms like “bad guy” or “Haji” or “Sand Nigger.” As a result over 1.4 million Iraqi’s have died as a direct result of our occupation. And of course over 5,000 Americans in OIF. And there is no “Iraqi Freedom,” as a result. There still is not consistent delivery of electricity or running water commensurate to the pre-war levels. This war was illegal and wrong. It was conducted merely for interest of corporate profiteering and benefited no one other than the few who profited. We were “used.” I love my country, but I am not going to rally around the flag and rhetoric in order to ignore the facts.
I love how those that disagree with our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan resort to making cases out of small minorities. My reply:
Eric, your generalizations are just as bad as Berkman the anarchist. I’m not saying there are no bad soldiers in the military, but they are by no means enough of a minority to warrant such blanket statements.
I’ve only been under one command that seemed to allow (by neglect) statements and terms like those you quote above. Every other unit has made strict rules prohibiting them.
Your comment about 1.4 million Iraqis dying is just plain factually inaccurate. If that were true, more than 16500 Iraqis would have to be killed EVERY SINGLE MONTH since the [war started in March 2003]. Even the most ignorant and biased of estimates don’t come close. It’s a false argument used to make our military look bad and you are just propagating the myth. Even Iraq Body Count doesn’t come close to that. It’s a lie created by the idiots in IVAW, Code Pink, and ANSWER.
Saying that there us no Iraqi freedom is also a lie. They have numerous free elections, they now enjoy the modern technology of cell phones, internet, and satellite television that didn’t exist for the common citizen prior to my arrival in Baghdad in April 2003.
There is nothing “illegal” about this war, but we can easily disagree about whether it us wrong it not. It’s a matter of opinion. Please continue to speak out against the few that go beyond our duty to protect the innocent, take the law into their own hands, and give the good guys a bad name. I don’t regret a single life I’ve taken because each and every bullet that left my rifle and pistol was a legitimate Target.
I would throw your words back at you to talk facts instead of rhetoric, which your reply was full of.
As a matter of fact, the anti-war site, Iraq Body Count, lists its highest estimates at a mere 105,000 – nowhere near the 1.4 million that the ignorant anti-war left swears by. The site even laments that “it is unfortunate that the most careful and well-resourced survey work in this area (from the UNDP and WHO) has been scarcely visible, while the most flawed and inadequate work has dominated public discourse. This has been largely due to the shocking (but ultimately numbing) effect of their hugely exaggerated death toll figures.” And people like Ethan McCord and his fans continue to try and use these “surveys” to dominate all aspects of the media. Have you noticed too that those who were shoving those numbers in our faces throughout Bush’s term are strangely silent now in keeping tabs on body counts? Anyway, the response to my comment comes quickly:
About the Iraqi body count, I refer you to the work of Les Roberts, published in the peer-reviewed British Medical Journal the Lancet, one article in 2003, the another in 2006, and I believe there are subsequent calculations to come to the current number of 1.4 million. His article fully explains how these numbers were derived. Furthermore, as a private citizen, in a forum such as this I can say whatever I want, as long as I don’t use my official title. And the free elections can’t even serve as a substitute for the destruction of infrastructure and loss of life and security that this people has suffered. Moreover, many of these elections at least in the beginning were manipulated by our state department. And cell phones and satellite TV exist throughout the Middle East, if they weren’t there under Sadam, they definitely would have found their way there. They were there when I arrived in OCT of 2003. Moreover, these tools of communication have nothing to do with “freedom.” That is like saying, well they didn’t have “McDonalds” before. Freedom involves human rights, access to adequate infrustructer, access to education, access to healthcare, the hope of upward social mobilitiy, adequate security and so on. And this war was absolutely illegal, and broke all kinds of international laws. And speaking out against the things we have done wrong, is not speaking out against the fine men and women who do serve our country. I am one of those people. And I certainly am not against shooting when being shot at. But I also am not foolheaded enough to think that we haven’t been the illegitimate aggressor on numerous occaisions. War is incredibly complex. Everyone understands that. Perhaps you should watch the film “What happened at Haditha,” which portrays this complexity adequately. We were supposed to win the hearts and minds and enable them to rebuild their country. We have not directed enough planning, effort, or resources toward that goal. But we certainly lined the pockets of KBR and Halliburton, and found a way to enable a parallel private Armies (e.g. Blackwater). Anyway…..I am sure we disagree on many things. Just because I have served with good people, should not obligate me to blind allegiance to incredibly misguided policies.
It’s interesting that of all the estimates and surveys done on this subject, Les Roberts’ survey is the only one that even approaches the million death mark. The study has been torn apart so many times for its methodology and the fact that there were no safeguards to ensure that deaths weren’t reported more than once by different families who may be of the same tribe or extended family reporting the same person multiple times. Furthermore, I never once mentioned that the writer couldn’t say anything he wanted. I just informed him he should be truthful about what he DOES say and refrain from misleading people. It’s a common tactic for a losing argument – feign being attacked. I responded to most of these point, but some were obviously so asinine that they weren’t worth arguing over.
Again, you come with more rhetoric and no facts. The fact – FACT – is that they were not allowed to own those “tools of communication” but can now is called freedom. And, if they had a McDonalds now, something they never had before, is a change due to government regulation and oppression, then that fits the definition of freedom too. Now, if they didn’t have a McDonalds because the people didn’t want it or because it violated some sort of constitutional practice, THEN your point would be valid and less rhetorical.
Freedom does involve human rights, something nonexistent before we removed SAddam. I personally saw the skeletons of human beings thrown in Uday’s lion’s cage in Baghdad. I spoke with victims of his atrocities, men who were castrated for refusing to allowing Saddam to take their daughters. Don’t even get me started on “adequate infrastructure” when electrical grids everywhere BUT Baghdad and Tikrit consisted of thousands of wires and cables strewn loosely and lowly above the streets and routed through large, dilapidated generators. The streets were the sewers. Farmers weren’t allowed to cultivate their crops without permission from the government, regardless of whether or not they were ready.
Have you been to Iraq? The people love us there now. As a matter of fact, they loved us when I was there. Yeah, we screwed royally in some cases (Abu Ghraib being the grossest example), but we aren’t the killers and murderers you’re trying to portray us as.
You say it’s illegal. Cite the “international laws” that were broken. Meanwhile, I’ll cite several “international laws” that authorized the use of force: UN Resolutions 660, 678, 1382, and finally 1441 in November 2002. Facts, not rhetoric. You used the term, now abide by it.
That includes your so-called 1.4 million figure. Are you honestly saying that at least 16,000 Iraqis have been killed EVERY SINGLE MONTH since March 2003? That’s the only way 1.4 million Iraqis could have been killed. If you are saying that, provide the facts, not more rhetoric.
The reason I bring this into the public forum is to basically further show the kind of person that Ethan McCord is. But, it’s also bring to a public discourse. Do you or someone you know still believe in the 1.4 million number? If so, I want to hear where these facts come from. I want someone to tell me that they honestly believe that over 16,500 Iraqi civilians have been killed EVERY month since March 2003 when the highest monthly death toll doesn’t even reach 2500. I await your input as well as a response from my antagonizer on Facebook.
Are you really that intimidated by a quote posted on a facebook page? This is a ridiculous article, the quote doesn’t even relate to the Bradley Manning case, or points out what sort of person Ethan McCord is, way to try and misconstrue things. lol
Sounds like to me you are just looking for people to support your views when really you have no business questioning the quote in the first place. Your life must be really pathetic if this is what you spend your time doing. It doesn’t matter how many Iraqi civilians have died, no innocent person should have to die for a cause that is not their own. The number does not change the fact that the act occurs and that is something that needs to be changed.
It is painfully clear that because your views are set in stone about Bradley Manning (although he hasn’t been convicted of anything.) That you are attempting to discredit him and anyone who supports the idea of transparency in the government versus the cover ups of heinous crimes committed against innocent people.
The real traitors are the politicians and military officials who have lied to the American public and the rest of the world since 9/11 and will continue lying as long as we allow it to happen. Wake up and spend your time writing about something more useful instead of wasting it trying to blacken the name of someone who was actually there.
Everyone knows that I didn’t agree with the reasons why we went into Iraq. And that is because I am a firm believer in the Two Front War doctrine. Afghanistan should have been finished before we went into Iraq.
But, we are there now. And just pulling straight out would hurt us badly.
As far as the war being illegal, no. Not so. Congress voted to go to war, and it was signed by the President. That makes it legal.
Yes, there have been incidents. Abu Gharib was the worst. But, these things happen in a war. That doesn’t excuse them, or make them right. Overall, we have done quite the good job of containing and curbing such excesses. Better than we have in the past.
Those numbers don’t add up. They don’t even add up with the “new math”. Yes, civilians have been killed. But if you take into account the numbers that were killed in past wars, its not even a blip on the radar screen. WWII – German civilian casualties were estimated between 900,000 and 3.2 million. (Kogan, Eugan. The Theory and Practice of Hell. New York 1960.)
This is just more stupidity from people trying to jump on the anti-war bandwagon to make a name, and money, for themselves.
Do I want our men and women to come home right now? Damn straight I do. But not at the risk of hurting us later. When the job is done. So take off the damn leash and let our men and women in the military do what they do best. Kick ass.
Contempt, when were you there?
Pointless war? LET’S SUPPORT THE HELL OUT OF IT BECAUSE WE ARE THE U.S MILITARY.
Unfortunately there is a point, oil and money for corporations. We disregard genocides in Africa because there is nothing in it for us. The American people have been let down by this propaganda for far too long. Read the facts and stop blindly following your leaders, one of the proud attributes that the military boasts.
The media has lead to a state of mass lethargy. People sit and watch the television and believe everything they are hearing which is why posts like this can slide. This is completely taken out of context. you sir are the farthest thing from a patriot. You resort to slandering and using freedom of speach against people who are not on “your side” Oh and isn’t a patriot someone who also wants what is best for their country? Well being in a war that is costing trillions of dollars is most certainly NOT beneficial to our economy.
Also if all else fails check out the money trail, that will never mislead you.
The war is illegtimate. It is a war of invasion and occupation..a high crime according to international law.The Lancet report has been attacked by the right wing screech machine..but is completely respected by an international community of thinkers and professionals.
The quote you claim belongs to Ethan is actually the posting of a different person…and so this seems to be a malicious attempt to take things out of context and just attack someone….which illustrates the kind of person you are.
The men and women in Afghanistan and Iraq and in the US miltary are committing brutal war crimes on a daily basis…as depicted so profoundly in the wikileaks video. The best thing that can ever happen to the US and the people of of the Middle East is an immediate withdrawel of all troops.
Your attempt to assasinate character is twisted and immoral. Ethan is a hero..and so is Josh Steiber. You are not.
Come on CJ… being a bit harsh today aren’t we? Can’t we find something to agree on with our pals in the Anti-Everything movement? How about their boycott on deodorant? Good cause? Or their women’s “Free our armpit hair from Gillette fascist” protests. Did you know they opposed the 1968 Iraqi coup that brought Saddam’s Baath party to power… they thought is was spelled BATH? They can’t be all that bad? Gee, I can think of so many. I’ve kinda lost count.
Hey Mr. Contempt… how about you dig up Washington and burn his remains at the stake for the estimated 10,000 loyal British soldiers who died and the hands of those colonial murderers. While you’re at it, unearth Truman and hang his bones from the goal posts of an NFL team’s stadium. Uday, Qusay and Saddam Hussein would have been so proud.
Here’s a lesson Mr. Contempt! How do you keep a moron in suspense?
How many dead civilians is acceptable to you? Apparently Iraq Body Count’s estimate of more than 100,000 is okay… illustrating your callous disregard for Iraqi lives. This whole war was unjustified, and therefore illegal, illegitimate and completely immoral. The crimes illustrated in the wikileaks tape are not aberrations, but concentrations of what this whole war is about. So thank you Ethan McCord and Josh Steiber for speaking out. Resistance must spread to end these crimes!
I’m always amazed at how thin-skinned some military guys can be–CJ here being a case in point. Many of his ilk simply cannot take any criticism of U.S. military policy, at all. In this case, we are treated to a whole posting attacking Mr. McCord personally for something he put on his Facebook page, for crying out loud.
Furthermore, parsing the numbers of Iraqi dead misses the forest for the trees. Whether 10,000 or 100,000, dead civilians are dead civilians. Not only is this immoral, it’s not even consistent with the COIN strategy we supposedly have in place. We have damn near destroyed the country in our effort to somehow make it “better,” but the best that people here seem to be able to come up with is “our slaughter is better than Saddam’s slaughter.” Well, the people of Iraq would beg to differ. They obviously want us out of there–which is why they keep blowing up our soldiers. How many more years of this will you all be happy with? Three? Ten? Twenty? Do you really think a shining democracy is waiting at the other end?
I’ve got 4 words for you: Major General Smedley Butler.
And he wasn’t quoting anybody, those were his words.
As a side not, you did not quote a single word of Ethan Mccord’s in your insecure and defensive rant, and, you come across as very arrogant…Rush Limbaugh would be proud.
There is no shining democracy waiting at the end of the oil and blood soaked rainbow of US Empire. There is only great suffering, destruction and death..
You stated your reasons for beginning this blog as to show what kind of person Mr McCord is and to quibble about slaughter numbers…
Well..let’s see…Mr McCord is the kind of person who saw civilians in grave danger and acted to help. Mr McCord is the kind of person who can think beyond militaryspeak and unravel the truth…that soldiers in these wars of occupation are NOT heroic…but are turned into video game murder robots…completely disconnected from their own humanity.
A troubling indication of disconnection from conscience, on your part, is the transformation of civilian deaths,human beings, into death numbers…and putting a value on how many are acceptable to you.Another is a statement made that there is no regret at any killings done personally because all were \legitimate targets\No they were not..they were legitimate human beings.
Another problem is viewing the torture at Abu G’Hraib as an isolated incident. Terror and torture have gone hand in hand since the beginning of these wars as a strategy…and continue to be linked together in places close to home as well as in far flung locations.The current president sanctions assassination of US citizens suspected of supporting terrosist..suspected….suspected.
Resorting to infantile jokes about armpit hair will not make the truth go away. Attacking people who speak out against these wars won’t either.
Also..congress did not sign a declaration of war on any country. Congress gave the pres authority to fight terrorism…and so Bush fought it as a holy war…and Obama sees it as some kind of macabre investment.
I am just amazed. First, to “cyberbean”, “The quote you claim belongs to Ethan is actually the posting of a different person…and so this seems to be a malicious attempt to take things out of context and just attack someone….which illustrates the kind of person you are.” The quote at the beginning of CJ’s article is clearly attributed to “—Alexander Berkman” in case you missed that. The point about the “body count” IS relevant because CJ was merely pointing out the inaccuracy of the man’s facts.
The main thing that I have gotten from all these “attack responses” to CJ is the total disdain that all of you seem to have for America and for the Military. This is very cavalier of you since you are totally enjoying and exploiting those very Freedoms that our Military and the very fact that you ARE Americans allow you. How dare you disrespect blanketly our Military and our Country. How VERY LUCKY you are that you do live here and not some where else.
To those of you who deny that Iraq is any better now than it was, Please feel free to read up on the oppressive society that was in place BEFORE we got there. Enlighten your sorry ignorant self. If any of you are women, consider yourselves lucky that you were not living in Iraq BEFORE we got there. Chances are you would have been raped and tortured daily in one of the rape rooms. Gee, doesn’t that sound like a nice thing?
For those of you who feel it has been an illegal war by international standards. Iraq was in violation of many UN sanctions and our congress voted to give the President the green light and the President acted. There was nothing illegal about it. Iraq’s violations were illegal and we had the right to act in response to them.
For the dolt who brought up how we have done nothing for African countries because there is nothing in it for us, you need to go check, as another of your buddies called it, “the money trail.” We poor tons of money into those poorer countries in an effort to stem Aids, poverty, famine, starvation, etc. Our humanitarian dollars flow like the Mississippi after a flood. Have we seen any progress?? Of course not. Why have you not heard about anything happening or the plight of the people easing?? Perhaps it is because of the dang corruption in those countries and the fact that for every dollar we send, more than half, probably upwards of three quarters goes to corrupt governments. Not sure how you feel about your tax dollars being pissed away, but for me, NOT acceptable.
I feel sad and sorry for you all that you are so jaded and so ignorant that you cannot see anything but your hatred. And you have let that hatred spread to where you don’t even appreciate what you have and how lucky you are to live in this country and have men and women like CJ who are willing to sacrifice for you by serving their country.
For those of you who like to scream “murderers and baby killers” and spit on our Soldiers, may you get your just rewards in the Kingdom beyond if you are not punished here. If you truly knew a Soldier, you would know that they are NOT murderers or killers. There may be rogue people who do bad things but as a whole, in general, they are just like you and me. They are human beings who give of themselves unselfishly for others and ask nothing in return, serving for piss poor pay, living in hellish conditions and doing their jobs, every day, no days off.
When was the last time YOU worked for 36 or 48 hours straight, no breaks, in 140 degree heat, sleeping on dirt, rocks or the hood of a humvee, doing it all with 75 extra pounds on your body from metal armor plates and a pack, with people shooting at you, ambushing you, booby trapping everything around you, hiding behind women and children because they are cowards and sneaks and don’t play by the rules of engagement that were set up by the lawyers in Washington that OUR Soldiers have to abide by???
Before you call CJ names, you need to think about the kind of American you are. And not just that you are proud to be shooting your big mouth off here and saying its your duty to question. It’s your duty to question legitimate things. Look in the White House now. You want to question something that is illegal, how bout checking out the fact that the President is very slyly and sneakily usurping the Congress and is taking over more power than the Executive Branch should legally have.
Check out the financial situation of this country, thank you Mr President Obama, and how close we are to a melt down of epic proportions that we will never see the end of. We will make Greece look like bush leaguers. Speak out about that. Don’t come here and spew BS and try and degrade someone like CJ who has served with honor, done his job, and sacrificed for YOU. If you want to debate, use real facts not rhetoric. It only makes you look trite.
Mostly, I wish that you would read with both eyes, and use your brains so that you can see what was actually said and get over the whole Bush thing. He isn’t even President any more and you’re letting this guy in office get on with a pass. Grow up. Be a citizen of this country and make it your business to find out the truth. Not hide your head in the sand and believe all the tripe from the nut jobs out there.
to down 05…the quote in question was not posted by ethan..but has been attributed to have been….(and there is some contention that it is a cj bradley quote.)
Now…some of the things you raise, I would be in agreement with. The hammering down of these wars, torture, eclipsing of civil rights, and the finacial meltdown that includes the rape of the ecosystem as profoundly illustrated in the gulf are directly attributable to the current administration, but not singular to it.I do not give him a pass. I don’t give Bush a pass either.
As far as believing that the USMilitary (it should be clear that I am referring to the military as a brutal entity…an arm of the government, and not talking about individual soldiers who come to their own understanding of how they are being used at differnt times and at differnt rates of dawning reality) stands in any way for the civil and social rights of people in the US is misunderstanding of the USMilitary role.The role of the military is NOT to ensure freedom…but to follow the commands of a civilian government that demands obedience in the interests of power and control over strategic zones that serve their interests…and NOT the interests of freedom of speech.That’s the company line and it is not the truth. The job of the military is to fight and battle and kill on the command of those in the halls of power who do NOT have the intersts of you or me or the people of the Middle East at heart..but the interests of power and profit. And yes…there is brutality at the hands of other leaders and other governments…but the nature of invasion and occupation and rules of engagement is a war on civilans. It is wrong in its essence….and serves to make life even more unbearable for those occupied. Look at the wikileaks video….look at what soldiers have to become in order to serve the interests of this government.
Ethan and Josh were soldiers who were there.They had bought the company line…and then the truth became apparent to them…. and at personal risk and as an act of courage…they are standing and saying no more.
Don’t think that you are sacrificing for me if you continue to fight for those in power. I don’t want you to fight these wars in my name. I want to stand with you to oppose these wars.
As far as the Lancet study….in comparision with any other study or government death figures….the point is that there should not be one death…not one. All are unacceptable..and when we get lost in counting and which numbers are the correct ones..we lose sight of the fact that these wars are killing people in hideous and brutal ways for power and profit for the few…and we want this to stop.
I am sorry you take something off of Facebook Then turn it and twist it to your own liking. I know Ethan, he supports the troops, and all they stan for. Not all of us Support the war, but we support the troops no matter what. SO For you to turn his words and trash him , get a freaking clue. Cause if your going to be reporting do it right, and not like the Dems and Reps do. Be honest and upfront. Not like a theift in the night.
Rob J. Sheldahl
Don’t apologize for me. I don’t need it. I’m a big boy and don’t need little boys patronizing me. If Ethan supported the troops, he would defend the troops against the quote he used on his profile. Instead, he took the cowardly route and only responded on my page where his zealot following wouldn’t be disappointed in his disagreement with a controversial quote. Or, maybe he DOESN’T disagree with the quote. In that case, it becomes difficult to say he “supports the troops”.
By the way, those weren’t HIS words. He only quoted the words of another. Also, please explain where I’ve been dishonest. Thanks.
To CJ: Apparently you cannot read either. Sad.
I never claimed to be there. Ethan McCord was there. “Wake up and spend your time writing about something more useful instead of wasting it trying to blacken the name of someone who was actually there.”
Obviously, one of the intentions of this article is to blacken Ethan McCords name.
To the others: Wonderful, not only do we assume things about people we know nothing about, but we are also sexist. Interesting.
To assume that the people who don’t agree with the government do not support the troops is ridiculous. You don’t know any of the people who post here. You don’t know if they are members of the military or even citizens of the United States. I congratulate you on your infallible ability to prove your ignorance no matter what situation.
Contempt, you are the one that cannot read – or least cannot reason or analyze. You criticize me for criticizing someone who “was actually there.” And yet you, who WAS NOT THERE, come in here and criticize me. So, I’ll throw your words back on you and say “Wake up and spend your time writing about something more useful instead of wasting it trying to blacken the name of someone who was actually there.” In this case – ME!
I don’t need to write an article to blacken McCords name. Only HE can do that. All I do is bring attention to actions.
Dude, you make yourself sound ignorant with this whole slew of rhetoric. You begin by attacking Ethan McCord, then you babble about your arguments with someone who IS NOT Ethan McCord, and THEN you mention Ethan McCord at the end of your rant. Who are you really attacking? I’ve seen plenty of things on the internet that a lot of soldiers do over there that define this war as an illegal war, so DO NOT SAY IT’S NOT. You may not take part in it, BUT you are aware of it, so step up and admit your own truths. Stop attacking others and take a stand of YOUR OWN for something. In my experiences with life, those who attach others have some secrets of their own they are trying to protect. Ethan McCord is a good man who, since he has been home, has had time to think about the things he took part in. What I hear Ethan saying is that he’s not proud (feels guilty) of the things that he took part in (including the things in which he was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time) This is way more than I hear you say. You are saying that you knew about things, yet felt no remorse for not stopping them. Like I said, take a stand on what you believe in and stop trying to knock others down. BE A MAN!
Talk about rhetoric. You said nothing but rhetoric here. You didn’t present any facts, only your opinions. You say you saw “things” and yet don’t explain those things (rhetoric) that define this war as illegal. You say I have secrets to protect that you aren’t aware of (rhetoric). You say I knew about things, but don’t mention those “things” (rhetoric). I saw nothing illegal that I didn’t respond to AT THE TIME. In Fallujah, I personally reported a CPT and SFC for using cattle prods on prisoners (abuse). It was an unpopular act, but I did something about it on the spot instead of taking the cowards way out and saying something about it when I got out of the Army (fact). I took a stand. Now you take a stand and defend yourself. In your words, BE A MAN!.
I concur with cyberbeans last post.
CJ and down05, do you guys agree that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11?
Yes I do agree that 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq. Although Saddam did fund groups that funded and trained members of Afghanistan based Al Qaeda that DID have something to do with 9/11.
I would like to share an article that clearly and concisely explains how and why the wars of occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan are in fact ILLEGAL, UNPROVOKED AND UNJUSTIFIABLE. It can be found at – http://www.examiner.com/x-18425-LA-County-Nonpartisan-Examiner~y2009m9d9-Are-US-wars-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan-mistakes-of-good-intentions-What-we-now-know-from-the-evidence
That guys is a moron and so are you for not doing your homework. He bring up FOUR points out of the 23 used in the authorization to use force. What WOULD make the war immoral or unjustified war is if all the points made were KNOWN to be false, which no one can honestly claim. If you can use an opinion piece as evidence that the war is illegal, I’ll provide one that proves otherwise:
http://www.soldiersperspective.us/2008/01/26/what-makes-a-statement-false/
Furthermore, he’s dead wrong on at least two of his points. The first is the WMD issue. While we did not find the WMDs that EVERYONE thought Saddam possessed – including the democratic antagonizers – we did find:
Found: 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium
Found: 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons
Found: Roadside bomb loaded with sarin gas
Found: 1,000 radioactive materials ideal for radioactive dirty bombs
Found: 17 chemical warheads some containing cyclosarin, a nerve agent five times more powerful than sarin
The second is the assumption that Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. The FACT is that Saddam funded an anti-Kurdish group known as Ansar Al Islam in northern Iraq. He funnelled money and equipment to them. Ansar al Islam provided training in their northern Iraq camps to members of Afghanistan’s Al Qaeda. Additionally, Ansar al Islam groups trained in Afghanistan Al Qaeda camps. Now, it’s no secret nor debated that the AQ group that targeted the WTC, Pentagon, and other locations was from AQ Afghanistan. Connect the dots. Saddam supported AQ indirectly.
CJ, I haven’t seen anything mentioned about Saudi Arabia. Why didn’t we go after Saudi Arabia when almost all of the 9/11 plane hijackers were Saudis?
How many of these Saudis were trained in Saudi Arabia? They were trained in Afghanistan. That’s an ignorant argument and makes no sense.
“The FACT is that Saddam funded an anti-Kurdish group known as Ansar Al Islam in northern Iraq.”
Are you high, dude? Saddam and Al Qaeda hated each other. Saddam was an infidel who has allied with the U.S. in his war with Iran. Al Qaeda was a threat to Saddam’s regime, as a thug who nevertheless trained women doctors and taught them how to read. Just because they all look alike to you doesn’t mean they are. Connect the dots: 911 was a Zionist, inside job. Thanks for raising an excellent question.
300 U.S. Military Officers Question 911:
http://PatriotsQuestion911.org
Looks to me like YOU are the high one since I didn’t say anything about Saddam and AQ working together. I said Saddam funded groups that DID work with AQ, with or without Saddam’s knowledge. Other than that, I’m not responding to your ignorant stupidity about 9/11. You’re an idiot, plain and simple.
CJ, judging from the comments above, the math isn’t really the issue anymore. I think a compassionate human being is aware that the attack on Iraq has killed far too many innocents. Your debate about exact numbers with Ethan makes you look ignorant and callous. Your next steps will show your more about character. Perhaps you should think carefully before you continue down the road you’re on.
It’s a shame that innocents have to die in war. There has NEVER been a war in which innocents did not die. It’s a fact of war and the United States bends over backwards – even putting its own troops in danger – to prevent the killing of as many innocents as possible. The math IS the issue when it’s that far off the mark. If that number were true, even I’d be more upset!
first off CJ that quote, is a quote about the act of war Not being a soldier. And why would i say that soldiers are stupid callous murderers, when that would place myself and members of my family into that category? The act of war is stupid, and brings out irresponsible murder, and callousness..maybe you should pay a little bit more attention to the quote instead of “Reaching” for a reason to blacken my name. Your irresponsible blog is quite ridiculous! And another thing…My views are posted quite predominently on my facebook page as well as voiced by me! You my friend took a quote, and formed it into something you thought it meant and then formed an opinion about me based on a quote! Your very close minded and obviously irresponsible in your so called “reporting”
Peace
Ethan, because that’s what the anti-war, troops are murderers crowd does. The fact that you published that quote without comment speaks volumes. Your comment that the quote is “about the act of war Not being a Soldier” is a strawman argument. When the quote says, “War means blind obedience, unthinking stupidity, brutish callousness, wanton destruction, and irresponsible murder” who do you think fights wars? It’s definitely not robots. War is nothing without Soldiers. Blind obedience refers to Soldiers. Computers don’t “think” and they certainly don’t do so “stupidly” unless programed that way, so the comment refers to troops. “Brutish callousness, wanton destruction, and irresponsible murder” can’t happen by itself. “War” is not an entity, it’s an activity that is undertaken by people – troops. So, your argument is hollow that the quote is about “war” and not Soldiers. Get real.
Your “views” aren’t exactly posted “quite predominantly” on your Facebook when you refuse to allow those you don’t “friend” see them. I can’t see them anymore because you won’t let me. So, there’s nothing predominant about it except to your fellow leftist, anti-war friends.
I have read this discussion in detail and have concluded that Ethan’s points are honorable, morally sound and supported by logic, while CJs are largely based on ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, words taken out of context, and blatant distortion of undeniable historical facts. I don’t have time to expound on these, besides, Contempt, Cyberbean and others have already made all the points I would make. Ethan, God bless you, CJ, you should be ashamed.
Good job, James. I’m sure your “conclusion” was completely objective. For the record, I’m not ashamed. I’d have to actually care about your opinion and put some weight behind it.
I do find it quite interesting that no one is responding to the quote, just taking sides between me and Ethan. Come on. I want to hear you stand by that quote and why! My little vendetta against Ethan is merely a side argument.
I am amazed at how ignorant and blind the supposed anti-war, ultra-left Chris Matthews blowing, Nancy Pelosi loving full of hate liberal left are. Any retarded idiot that thinks 9-11 is an inside job is giving the government way too much credit. They can’t keep a secret between 5 people, so how does anyone think they could pull of 9-11 as an inside government conspiracy and keep it secret?
I can’t believe we really have that many Rosie O’ Donnell followers reading on this site. I mean an inside job? And to think I have went to way several times and suffered for you people, and that good friends of mine have died for you to enjoy these freedoms. Do us all a favor, go choke yourself with a chainsaw or move to another country that you love more than America. Go somewhere else and leave this great country to us, those that love this county.
Oh and for innocent civilians. Let me educate you a little bit, they are not all innocent. Just because they don’t have a weapon in their hand at the moment they die or are found (having already had their weapon removed) does not make them innocent. Not to mention that they can stand up to the insurgents and those that are killing their own people. If you don’t defend your home to a burglar, then you deserved to be robbed.
Out come the big guns.
what? wrote:
Do you agree that Bush never said it?
what? also asked:
al Qaeda’s war is as much with the Saudi government and royal family (as well as other secular Muslim governments)as it is with the U.S.
YouAreFullofIt wrote:
From the Iraqi Perspectives Project:
There’s a reason why Bush said
It isn’t just “al Qaeda” but a whole Islamic terror network with cross-over training and financing and interests. Don’t be fooled by the franchise name:
Back in 1998, bin Laden’s fatwa declaring war against the U.S. was done so under the umbrella moniker, the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, signed also by Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt at the time, to become al Qaeda’s #2 man; Abu- Yasir Rifa’i Ahmad Taha, a leader of the [Egyptian] Islamic Group; Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan; and Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh.
It isn’t just “al Qaeda” we are at war with, but a whole Islamic terror network. The boundaries that separates and distinguishes one from another get rather blurred and dissolves.
Ray Robison‘s “Both in One Trench” devotes a chapter that debunks the Tyler Drumheller-induced myth that a “secular” Saddam regime would never collaborate with religious nuts toward shared short-term goals.
Scott commented on this well:
Saddam was not an Islamic fundamentalist in the religious sense; but he used religion for political reasons.
And the left always overstates our “support” for Saddam, as if alliances of convenience are meant to be permanent alliances/friendships. This is like criticizing us for ever allying with Stalin, as if we ever liked him to begin with.
Which is why, like the Saudi government’s funding of wahhabism, they chose ways to placate and set up uneasy truce/alliance with jihadi groups like al Qaeda. It was Saddam’s way of controlling them through funding/support, thereby directing their ire against those outside of his “secular” Muslim government rather than at it for apostasy.
The only reason why all these anti-war commenters hail Ethan McCord as a hero while villifying CJ isn’t because they are interested in facts or the truth, but because guys like Ethan McCord and Brad Mannings fulfills their world view and supports a political agenda. They are useful propaganda tools for the anti-war movement (which is not the same as being pro-peace).
Not everyone can be a wordsmith! Thanks for the GREAT response.
I have read that quote a number of times now and if it’s not about the soldier, than just who is Berkman addressing?
He uses the words “you”, “yours”, “your” in describing the awfulness of fighting wars. And he has definitely included “the thousands” who will be involved in, apparently all war, in this statement.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that is all this quote is – Berkman’s opinion, as he has not backed it up with names, events, facts, studies etc., but that does not make it an undisputable “truth”.
And just as with opinions, “truths” are subjective,unlike “facts”, as someone’s “truth” comes from life experiences, and can change. Facts do not change.
I know many soldiers whose “spirit of manhood” is not “deadened” by war, (especially the females) and I don’t know any mindless bots in uniform. They do their job (fighting in war)and they do it well. They are not irresponsible murderers. Yeah, war is awful but unfortunately for now the human condition is as it is and there are wars.
If it is war that Berkman is so against, he should have stuck to opining about the nature of war – not the soldier.
So Berkman and those who believe this statement to be truth show only their ignorance of the facts. And if those who comment here will not be open enough to look at the facts and see if maybe their info is wrong, or right, it’s not a discussion or debate but an intolerant and divisive playgroundish “yeah, but your mother wears combat boots” tit for tat.
If one is going to put up an opinion or quote, especially without context, one should know that there might be disagreement, which could lead to a discussion where one can learn something. Instead of kneejerk insults hurled at the person in disagreement, try asking them why they think whatever it is they think.
Unfortunately, this is not the case here. Just the usual la la la – I can’t hear you closed minded “I know the truth”. Yes, but do you know the facts?
Wordsmith and troy and CJ know facts and have outlined them very clearly. CJ knows his Soldiers and his war. Berkman knows his soldiers and war.
If you are anti-war, fine, man up and declare it and defend it – preferably with facts to give it credence. Opinions are fleeting things and don’t really change a thing.
What a surprise.
What is a surprise to you? The fact that you are calling what I’m writing “rhetoric” or that you don’t want to consider my facts? Everything I’ve written can be referenced and proven. When that happens it ceases to be called “rhetoric”.
Thank you to Iraqi Perspectives Project for all that great information and an unbiased addition to the discussion. To What? and Wordsmith, nothing in my response said anything about Iraq/911. I said that Iraq was in violation of numerous UN mandates and sanctions. Don’t lump me in with your stupidity. To Yourefullofit, the last line of your rant says so much about your ignorance. Congrats.
Again, I have to say that the underlying message coming across in all the responses is all about how bad our country is and how much you all hate it. We are so horrible, we do everything wrong, we are nothing but the world’s bully. Well, to all of you, I would like to say, you are more than welcome to go and live some where else if you think we’re so bad. You obviously never watch the news, well except maybe for MSNBC, so you wouldn’t know that there are people out there who are trying to kill us and take over the world with their radical ideals, brutish, suppressive way of life and terroristic tactics.
Yourefullofit also in his/her infinite wisdom brings up that Sadaam trained women as doctors and taught them to read. I love the blinders. Sadaam also had rape/torture rooms where women were systematically brutalized, he also condoned honor killings, ordered beheadings of women who supposedly had committed some infraction, he ordered forced fertility campaigns on girls as young as 10 in order to replace the male population decimated by his war with Iran. And the literacy rate of Iraqi women in 2000 was 23%. What Sadaam giveth, he also took away. Brutally.
To cyberbean who said, “Don’t think that you are sacrificing for me if you continue to fight for those in power. I don’t want you to fight these wars in my name. I want to stand with you to oppose these wars.” I will NOT stand with you on this issue because I have a totally different understanding of the situation, obviously.
I’m sure that many Soldiers would love to NOT fight for you but they fight for all of us. They fight for our Country. They fight for honor and for freedom whether you believe that’s the reason or not. And while the civilian government gives their orders, you have to remember that they were not forced to join the military. We no longer have a draft in this country. They are all there for personal reasons and all the guys that I have talked to, when asked why they are in the Army/Marines/Navy/Air Force/Coast Guard, it is because they want to ensure that our way of life is secure for the next generation. Their children. The ones they kissed goodbye and left for a year or more.
And you can’t separate the individual Soldier from the Military because the individual Soldier makes up the Military. Each one is there for their own reason, makes his own peace with God for what he has to do and tries to find peace with in themselves for what they have to do and what they see, the losses they endure. PTSD has affected too many and too many have not sought help. I don’t know Ethan but I’m guessing that a big part of what this is all about is that he is still fighting that fight inside himself and he needs to get help.
I read the interview he gave and if he hasn’t sought out a psychologist he really should. The human brain can only handle so much and then it copes in its own way. But the horror is still there, buried and will come back and haunt you unless and until you seek help to make peace with it. I wish you the best.
One of the reasons this happens to American Soldiers and not to the enemy that we are currently fighting is that as Americans, we value life. And the life of a child is precious to us. So to see a child killed or injured it yanks and rips at their hearts as it did to Ethan. (Probably he saw his own children as he tried to help the children in the van.) The enemy we are currently fighting would strap a bomb on that child and send them out to get close to the specified target and then hit the button and detonate the bomb/child at the precise time to maximize the carnage. Who is the brute???
You HAVE to look at the big picture and not look through a microscope. Yes war sucks. Do I want this war? NO!! For many reasons that I will not discuss here. BUT, I am not so stupid or ignorant or blind that I can’t see the bigger picture. I know that if we do not fight against this Islamic Terrorist Network that they will get stronger and take over more and more countries, just as Hitler did. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Al Quaida is on every continent and uses terrorism and acts of violence at will, killing many innocent people. They attack civilians for terror purposes. They set off a bomb in the streets and then when the ambulances come to help they blow them up too.
If you are unwilling to admit how many innocent civilians have been killed by the enemy we are fighting and still feel that America is the bad guy then you really need to rethink where you should be living. Because while you are cavalierly saying “don’t fight for me”, you are saying it while enjoying the right to say it, and the comfort of being able to say it, knowing that our Soldiers will fight for you no matter what. They don’t fight for me and not you. They don’t fight for Democrats and not Republicans. They don’t fight for men and not women. They don’t fight for Christians and not Jews or for believers and not for Atheists. They fight for us. ALL of us. And each one of them is a human being who wrestles daily with what they see and do. They are just like you and me as I said, only they have more courage and honor and strength. THEY are the Military you so obviously despise.
I don’t understand why you wouldn’t think that Saddam had anything to do with terrorism. There are examples of checks he wrote to West Bank suicide bomber families for $25,000 from Saddam. He funded Kurdish opposition terrorist groups with money and equipment. He had no problem killing his own civilians for opposing him. He fed his opponents to the lions and tigers in cages on his palace grounds. He shot at peacekeeping pilots enforcing the no-fly zone – an act of war in and of itself. He failed to return Scott Speicher after he was shot down during Desert Storm. I could go on and on. And yet, you say removing him was not a legitimate purpose for war.
Illegal war? Oh gee, I have to call my lawyer now. Maybe have some soldiers arrested. */sarcasm*
Illegal. Guess what folks. We won the Cold War. WE WON! GUESS WHO IS THE LAW NOW? THE USA.
What are they going to do, come in and arrest the President? Nobody would ever even try to enforce such an order, never mind the crapload of Secret Service around him. We can’t even arrest a President for crimes committed while in office.
Illegal war. How stupid is that?
down05 wrote:
Why are you lumping me in with the commenter, “What?“? Please look again. Nowhere in my comment did I address you; what I did was blockquote What?‘s question that was addressed toward you and CJ.
Would love to get a response from him.
Then perhaps you shouldn’t have asked the question below that seemed to be addressed to me on that topic.
*sigh*
Illegal war? As someone previously stated Congress voted to go in to war. As for the United Nations not voted to go to war, that is NOT as an indication that Sadam wasn’t hiding anything.
Some background:
The first gulf war (Desert Strom) cease fire was negotiated with the UN and Sadam to keep him in power and to avoid a US occupation. Sadam would have to provide unmitigated access to his weapons facilities, suspected chemical plants and provide access to count any remaining weapons in his arsenal. If they were destroyed in the first gulf war – then the weapons inspection team would look at that site and verify the decomposition of the area affirmed a missile was launched. The weapons team was to monitor the destruction of any other missile that Sadam had.
Sticking point: It wasn’t a question “if” Sada had war heads – this was the weapons supply that the US, Russia, France and China provided Sadam Hussein to deter Iran from invading Iraq (again). Sadam opted to use that arsenal to invade Kuwait.
At first George Bush Sr. was not getting involved in the Kuwait/Iraq scenario, until the Saudis convinced him otherwise “No, we’ll be next – you (US) armed Hussein, you push him back.”
The other option that Hussein to comply per the cease-fire from the first gulf was the food for oil program. Sadam had to provide oil for aid fro the UN to help rebuild Iraq.
Guess which countries had reconstruction contracts with Iraq after the first Gulf war? France, Germany, Russia. Pegueot minibuses, Renault Garbage trucks. China even installed a telecom network for Iraq which was an arms violation – b/c it would have linked the northern and southern air defense sectors – which were patrolled by NATO (no fly zones – Sadam could not fly his aircraft in the north or south).
So the food for oil program was being laundered – he charged an illegal tax on oil. When Russia, France and Germany refusedto allow – Sadam got rid of Pegeuot and Renault all of those contracts. So they looked the other way when Sadam charged illegal taxes on oil. Sadam got what he wanted by influencing decisions that way and he was cunning about it. He picked the night the US was embroiled in impeachment proceedings to decide to kick all of the UN weapons inspections team out of Iraq and then decided to shoot at planes in the north and south doing patrols.
I was there – in Europe, watching that air defense picture. Clinton bombed the pharmaceutical plant that Sadam wouldn’t allow inspectors access to anyway. However after that – no one compelled UN inspections to resume. There was provision from the first Gulf war cease-fire that if Sadam did not comply with weapons inspections, food for oil programs, flew in the no-fly zones – a military provision was in the UN cease-fire. It was not used and weapons inspections in Iraq stopped in 1998, Sadam charged illegal fees on his oil (and read up on the billion dollar food for oil scheme and how many players from the UN had their hand in the till). There is a reason that George W. Bush went to the UN after 9/11 saying “you’re facing irrelevancy” he was being kind with his words. The UN couldn’t promise or assure they would help the US find Osama etc…why would should the US? The UN cannot get Sadam to comply with its UN agreements.
Going to war – meant those countries (France, Russia, Germany) that had reconstruction contracts would be bust – they didn’t care what Sadam was doing. That’s the reason they voted against war. None of this is made up – it’s been reported in the Times, the post, and those cease fire agreements are avail via UN website.
As convoluted as that whole story is – every one is rooted in their own self-preservation. For those of you that think 9/11 was an inside job – go talk to Oliver Stone and let him bite off on a stupid conspiracy theory…Oliver did a lot of blow back in the day – as does Charlie Sheen … they are paranoid enough to believe a story about it being an inside job. I’m not going to read some idiot thinking burning fuel doesn’t explode. Numbnuts – how about impact with other objects and plastics in a building – that changes the chemical properties, it’s not just jet fuel. You give our gov way too much credit to pull that off. I lived five blocks from the Pentagon when that happened in Crystal City and the smell stays with me to this day. Plenty of plane debris was collected by the FBI. So no, I’m interested in paying to watch a movie to tell me what “really” happened – so pedal the website elsewhere.
down05 wrote:
Ok, this is getting rather silly. I hope this doesn’t come across as condescending; my intent is to just be helpful: Do you see how I quoted you in this comment? How it’s bracketed, preceded by “down05 wrote”? That’s the same way I cited what?. That way, people know who I am addressing and specifically what point the person made that I am replying to. Does that make sense? This is nothing unusual amongst those familiar with blog and forum commenting and html codes. Sorry if it caused you some confusion.