Old School versus New School
This article triggered a fierce debate among some military guys I know in a back channel email and I’m very curious what you military out there think.
The debate was not about these men (that the article is about) or the soldier who committed suicide per se. (NOTE: We are NOT going to discuss the guilt or innocence of the 4 NCOs nor the character of the young soldier who killed himself, so please stay on topic or comments will deleted. Until we know all the facts, it is wrong to disparage any of them. We weren’t there) The discussion morphed when I asked, “At what point does it become abusive, in your opinion? Is there no line?” when PT or physical correction was brought up.
The New School says that physical correction is not necessary. Mentoring and corrections through good leadership without forcing a soldier/marine to “drop and give me 20″ is not only possible, but very effective.
The Old School says on-the-spot correction with 20 pushups, sometimes with the leader joining in and addressing the issue before and/or after is just as effective and a lot of times necessary.
The point of this argument, I think, is the belief in different leadership styles.
Now, I have to say that the Old School group has a lot of experience, time-in-service wise, but the New School makes good arguments because he says the non-corporal-punishment idea is a branch wide philosophy and it works well, up to and including senior cadre who have lead using both styles.
I’ve read blogs where NCOs have had a slacker troop untangle a huge ball of 55o cord for punishment and others where senior NCOs made troops stand in daily formations as punishment for one tiny infraction. I’ve read them where NCOs regularly drop their guys if they screw up and others where verbal counseling combined with taking away perks has worked just as effectively in getting the point across.
Both sides, Old School and New School agree that abusive behavior by leaders is not to be tolerated. The difference is that one side thinks dropping soldiers/marines IS abusive and not treating their teams as adults.
I’d like to see what you others out there think. Is dropping someone abusive? Is there a line? Who determines when someone has had enough? Can the same goal be accomplished without the physical reinforcement? If one branch of the military chooses to do things differently, but is just as effective as a fighting force, is this evidence that one or the other system is bad? What say you?
Professor Hale
August 25th, 2009 at 9:45 amDropping for pushups is not abusive, just futile. You can only do that until muscle failure, then what? Doing pushups does not break the mind, the heart, or the will to be disobedient. Doing pushups is entirely dependent upon the willing cooperation of the person doing them.
Further, not everything works on everyone. Pushups works best on people who are already motivated to do well. Making someone do pushups just reminds them that they got caught. But with such people, simple things like “demerits” works just as well.
In my experience, doing pushups was mostly inflicted for trivial offenses or the capricious will of the senior.
The pushup as punishment is the last, absurd vestige of an older army that inflicted flogging as a punishment, by people who spanked their children, but can’t do that to 20 year old dudes.
LL
August 25th, 2009 at 10:23 amActually, your first point is what triggered my question as to “what is the line?” I didn’t ask this of the guys explicitly, but if a person being punished says they have had enough, does the punisher take his or her word at it? Most times, no, the decision as to how much is enough is left up to the punisher, thereby leading to the potential of direct abuse or abuse by lack of common sense.
Then again, if a leader cared about his troops, he’d know what he was doing. *shrug*
CJ
August 25th, 2009 at 11:02 amThe reason that push-ups works in a military environment and not a civilian one is that in the military we are tested on doing push-ups. Therefore, making someone do push-ups not only acknowledges that the individual screwed up, but also improves them physically as a Soldier. Isn’t ALL punishment dependent upon the willing cooperation of the person? I can’t MAKE someone do extra duty. I can’t MAKE someone listen to my lecture. Just like I can’t MAKE someone do push-ups. Also, there is nothing wrong with spanking children.
Wendy, when the Soldier says he’s enough push-ups, you switch to lunges or cherry-pickers.
Troy
August 25th, 2009 at 11:06 amOr Flutter Kicks, Hello Dollies, Mountain Climbers, the Dirty Dog, or starts low crawling in the grass by the barracks. There is no end in sight and all the muscle groups can be worked.
LL
August 25th, 2009 at 11:08 amYou can’t ever compare military to civilian, CJ. If you are deployed, command controls EVERYTHING from the time you eat and sleep to how badly you are punished for infractions. When you say someone has to cooperate with the punishment, in the military, you (as a leader) have the option of escalating even up to court martial depending on how badly a soldier disobeys a direct order or refuses a command or whatever. In civilian life, you just get fired, and on top of that, you can tell your boss to f*** off as you’re walking out the door.
DouginDC
August 25th, 2009 at 12:21 pmI wrote a leadership paper at the War College a few years back that also got a lot of attention — guess that makes me old school — based on an old Jewish expression: you can get a cat to carry a piano if you use a big enough whip as a motivator. But you can get it to carry that piano up three flights of stairs if you use love and guilt as your motivators. As tough a commander as Hackworth was I don’t see him acting the tough guy role just because you have the position or rank and his men performed at a superlative level. On the other hand I have seen a good kick in the ass or even a punch in the mouoth work wonders — but I don’t think that’s leadership, just an alternative to chickensh#t punishment
Kaci
August 25th, 2009 at 2:21 pmMy son, who is 17, just got stationed at Fort Campbell, KY in June. He is complaining to me that the Army isn’t tough enough. These men and women are trained to kill, and need some tough guidance….smokin’ these guys and making the newbies do push ups is a right of passage…it’s tradition….if a soldier can’t handle that, then how are they going to be on the front lines??? My son guaranteed that his battle buddy isn’t a wuss, so I’m thankful for that. This is the military folks…the baddest of the bad…we can’t hold their hands and tell them, “sorry I hurt your feelings soldier, will you forgive me?” If this is what the Army is generating, then we could be in some deep trouble.
David M
August 25th, 2009 at 3:13 pmInteresting topic here.
As a reference: I got out of the Army, ahem, a long time ago, so I’m definately what you might term an “old school” kind of guy. Having said that, push-ups as punishment seems to have come about in the 90’s, and smoking your troops because they screwed up seems to be an even newer phenomenom. In the 80’s we “never,” with never being in quotes because there are always exceptions, dropped a troop for screwing up. We counseled them and assigned them to extra duty, or if that failed or it was a recurring issue the AR15 was the old standby.
In point of fact, as a young trooper I was never dropped for push-ups as punishment, after I left Basic and AIT. Now was that a result of the type of unit I was in? Perhaps, the Cav always did seem to be a little different from Big Army. Thoughts? Are there any other old-timers out there that can suport or contradict me on this?
David M
August 25th, 2009 at 3:23 pmI want to clarify one thing.
We did drop each other for push-ups but not as punishment. As CJ noted, we were constantly evaluated on how many pushups we could do, with the assumption being that the more pushups you could do, the better the soldier you were. But I can’t recall any examples of being dropped as punishment for something I screwed up, and I know I never dropped any of my soldiers as punishment.
It was as another noted willing accepted and not as a form of punishment.
Recently Retired Navy CPO
August 25th, 2009 at 5:21 pmIn the Navy once you leave boot camp, punishment tends to not be physical. For the most part the punishment has to try to correct the problem at hand, and since we’re not as physical as the Army and Corps it doesn’t make sense for us. That’s the New School philosophy. Old School would be to a good butt chewing then whoop his a$$. Maybe assign more duty (old and new school).
I can see how physical punishment can become abusive. It doesn’t matter whether it’s perceived or reality. The line, unfortunately in today’s Military is crossed when the abuse is perceived.
LL
August 25th, 2009 at 6:19 pmSo a follow up question triggered by the last 2 responses, is it maybe the difference between combat MOS and non-combat, with the grunts pushing more physical? Just hypothesizing.
That Dude
August 26th, 2009 at 2:29 pmIt’s the same way you handle your kids. Some will respond to a soft-voiced verbal lecture, some just HAVE to have their backsides warmed before they pay attention; some are scared to death of losing ‘privileges’, some could care less. It’s all about fitting the punishment to the personality of the individual. And not going overboard with whatever works.
Jim Rip
August 27th, 2009 at 12:02 pmWhy do they make so many different sizes of screwdrivers? Because each tool fits a specific need. Same with troops. Corrective training can take many forms and can save a soldiers career. Small corrective training delivered at the exact time of the transgression is extremely effective in preventing it from reoccurring in the future. Getting rid of a tool that works in ridiculas.
There was a time when NCO’s would routinely correct soldiers who were tip-toeing over the line of proper conduct. It was common to see a soldier in the front leaning rest outside the PX because he/she was not wearing headgear. Now it is more common to see NCO’s walking without headgear.
Recently Retired Navy CPO
August 28th, 2009 at 11:07 amThat Dude and Jim Rip both have great points. Every person is different and there are just as many leadership tools to use. Some you just talk quietly to and tell them how dissapointed you are. Others you put them in a room with 15 angry Chief Petty Officers. Both you hope gets the point across.
Jim, headgear or Covers as we call them has ALWAYS been a pet peeve of mine. I will cross a huge parking lot to correct that foul up.
Jim Rip
August 28th, 2009 at 3:40 pmChief, I must admit that I have encouraged my fair share of soldiers to low crawl across a parking lot to retrieve ‘forgotten’ headgear. Never the same soldier twice. Overlooking the small infractions always leads to larger ones so I see it as prevention.
Jim Rip
August 28th, 2009 at 3:48 pmBy the way LL. I miss the old blog. Sorry you had to go private it made my day happier on more than one occasion.
LL
August 28th, 2009 at 10:12 pmJim Rip, so sign up for the membership thing. Now that I have a clue, I promise not to delete your entry. I’m up to 9 people who couldn’t bother to introduce themselves. haha
Maj Pain
August 29th, 2009 at 3:17 amwould say, make the time fit the crime. I’ve seen where Marines drop their rifle, you will hear other Marines say “Follow it” meaning start pushing out 10 or so, to help yourself remember not to drop the damn thing that may save you. Me, I like to kill with kindness. Example: I had four knuckleheads that routinely screwed up. Instead of hammering them above my pay grade back at the time, I simply told them, I will see you Saturday morning in your “Alphas” uniform. Sat morn came at 0630 and I picked them up in my Alphas. I didn’t tell them where we were going but I didn’t have to as we pulled up to the Veterans hospital. I told them, now you go in there and tell all of those warriors in beds fighting for their lives how you are disgracing their corps and why you are really there bright and early Sat morning. They all got more than they expected when we left talking to those heroes and the ride home was very silent. I din’t have any problem with them after that. However, a good ass chewing will fix the rudder of any rank Marine. Trust me, many of you haven’t had a real good ol ass chewin before either. Semper Fi